When you're driven the need to accomplish a goal is relentless. Hard work and ambition compel you to do whatever's necessary. In my work as a personal injury trial lawyer for 18 years, it's common to meet driven people. Those with drive can have different personalities, careers and backgrounds that they possess one common factor, despite their passions, driven people want to surround and motivate themselves with other driven people. If you want to learn how to overcome obstacles by learning from others, then tune in here, this is The Driven Crowd Podcast. Welcome to the very first episode of The Driven Crowd Podcast, fueled by Snellings Law. My name is Scott Snellings, and I'm your host and I am incredibly excited to get this podcast series started off. We're going to take a look at incredibly interesting people who have all shown a drive in certain parts of their lives, whether that be professionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you name it, each of these people has a drive and we're going to break that down. We're going to figure out what is it that drives them? What are their goals? What are their visions for their lives? How do they face problems, and all kinds of interesting topics like that. So without further ado, let's get started. Today's guest I've known for about eight years, I believe, and I've watched him grow his law firm in very creative ways. And one of the things that draws me to him is the fact that he's not afraid to try new things. He will come up with ideas, so implement them, and some of them work, and some of them don't. So without further ado, James Creedon welcome to The Driven Crowd Podcast. Well, thanks so much for having me on, I'm glad to be here. And yeah, we've known each other for a while, we're always talking about business, new ideas, new approaches. And so I'm glad to have a forum where we can chat about that a little bit more. Absolutely. In fact, right before we got started, we were just talking about a new business idea. And maybe we'll even plug that at the end for you. Yeah, maybe we'll go there. Though, growing one business might be enough for me at the mom ent. Alright, so talking about that. Tell us, I mentioned that you ran a law firm. Tell us a little bit about that. Sure, so my law firm is Creed on PLLC, we've been around for just about five years now it's a continuation from a prior firm. And interestingly, we started off as a branding firm, which is fairly unusual for law firms. I had worked in the world of intellectual property, and I was really interested in how you build a brand working for companies like Chanel, and Fossil and Virgin, seeing how they created their brand identity and protecting their identity in the market. And I wanted to find those smaller, growing, exciting businesses that were trying to do the same thing. So in 2017, I launched my own firm, and from there, we've had nothing but success. So, it's been great building our brand and building the brands of clients all around the world. Fantastic. So in doing that, what are some different brands that you've worked with that maybe some of our listeners might have known about or heard about? Sure. Well, one of my favorite brands we work with right now is Glorious. Glorious, is a company that makes computer peripherals for esports. So if you're someone who's in the world of watching competitive eSports, competitive video gaming, if you don't know it's a huge industry, a lot of money in that industry, a lot of attention, and Glorious makes high end mechanical keyboards and mice. Really an amazing set of products that they're growing and scaling up every year. And they've been so successful during COVID, because people are spending more time at home exploring this world of video games and eSports. And as you and I have talked about in the past the world of the metaverse, so our clients and our interests all come together. Fantastic. One of the other things that people always find interesting is breweries and people who are making different types of liquors. What about that industry? Yeah, we love the brewery and distillery industry, especially the craft side of things. You know, we've worked with larger companies. And of course, we always like to do that. But my greatest excitement is those companies that are growing up in scaling and really expanding their reach. So, I'd say my favorite one right now is probably Manhattan Project, which is down in Dallas, and really interesting labeling, a lot of references back to the atomic sciences and nuclear sciences. And that speaks my military side and some of the things I'm doing now in the military. So I love the brand, I love their creativity. And what really stands out is they've created a tap room in Dallas, that is a social space where people can come to and meet up, and especially as we're coming out of COVID, that's so critical to get back face to face. So having a phenomenal beer product and Seltzer product that people can enjoy in a space that brings them together to be social with the vibe of building a community. That to me is a top end client, and we're so proud to work with them. Awesome. Now, you mentioned your military experience. Let's start with your background kind of work back up to that. Where'd you grow up? So I grew up in rural Connecticut, Northern Connecticut for the first 18 years of my life and as you may recall, I dropped out of high school when I was in 10th grade. So, I was a high school dropout and traveled around quite a bit for a few years. I actually was, I road freight trains across the United States and spent some time in California and then eventually worked my way back to the northeast. And by that point, I was looking to figure out what I was supposed to do with my life. So I had my GED already, but I wanted to do something more. And I always had this draw towards service, a commitment to helping others. So I became an EMT, and then New York City paramedic. And that was my job for a number of years, working as a paramedic, and serving others working in my community. And then when 9/11 happened, I was a 9/11 rescue worker. So that inspired me to think about larger issues. And so long story, but that's how I ended up in law school and eventually in the military. Alright, well, there's a lot to unpack right there. So you dropped out of high school in 10th grade. (That's right), what led to that decision? I was always one of those kids who wanted to do things differently. And I liked my teachers, they liked me, but I was just not really into the schooling system that I was in. I always felt like I was a smart guy. Maybe I was bored, maybe I was just rebellious. You know, I had family problems at home that probably were not so helpful as I was growing up. So the combination of all those things lead me to say, You know what, I bet I can find another way. And it was actually ironic, because when I left high school, I got my GED. And I ended up going to community college for a year. Well, my colleagues from from law, from high school were in senior year. So I actually started college a year early, I guess, you think about it that way. And so you make this decision. I can go do things differently. You get your GED, right after you drop out. (Yep). Okay, and then you start hopping trains across the United States. This is like a Mark Twain novel here.(Yes). What, what made you decide to do that? I was living in Northampton, Massachusetts, and I had a friend who had learned a little bit about riding free trains. And I just had an adventurous spirit. I had always wanted to travel across America and see the country. And I was young, I had the ability to do it, I was healthy and had no connections, right? No wife, no children, no job I had to worry about. And so I just figured out my way how to do it. And so I went from Springfield, Massachusetts, all the way across to Spokane, Washington and then down to Oakland, California. And so the whole trip took me about a month and I met some great folks along the way, had some really incredible experiences. I got pulled off the train out in far western New York State by a state trooper. He said, hey, you can't you know you can't be riding these trains. I thought for sure I was going to go to jail. He said, you know, I used to ride trains, when I was a kid, just be careful. He brought, me to a diner, the waitress he knew gave me a free meal. And I just went on my way. So it was pretty amazing experience as a as a young man to see the entire country. And it just gave me a sense of how varied America is just meeting people all across those northern states. That's amazing. You know, as a kid, you see, you see in the shows and in the movies, people running and jumping on these freight trains. And you figure it's just kind of a story, right? Like, maybe they used to do that in the in the olden days. But you did it. (Yeah, yeah.) Any close calls? There was always a bunch of close calls, sometimes with questionable situations, sometimes the questionable people. I have always been a talker as you can probably attest. And so I'm pretty good at conflict resolution. And so I've never had a situation where I couldn't talk my way out of it. So there was enough questionable experiences that happened that I would not recommend that someone tried to do it now. But of course, after 9/11 the train system got much more restricted, so you're probably couldn't. This was in the glory days of the 90s. There you go. Wow, fantastic. So eventually, you make your way back to New York City. And how do you get into being a paramedic EMT? S o I had seen some people get injured, minor injuries. When I was younger, my mother was a nurse. And so I always was interested in medicine, in helping people. It seemed like being an EMT was a fun way to combine my interest in adventure and excitement. Going out and being on an ambulance, running around New York City, but also helping people. And so I became an EMT first, and then I studied for longer to become a paramedic. And I got to work overnights in South Bronx in Harlem and with great people, my partner on the ambulance was my best man at my wedding. And it was just a chance for me to really, in the same way, I had this adventure and experienced the country by traveling on freight trains I got to experience New York City by working in all different sections of it and meeting people. And again, because I like to talk it was a great way to find people in crisis and help talk them out of it and help calm them down. So in the Bronx, as a paramedic, you had to have seen pretty much everything. )Yes, yeah.) Anything in particular stick out to you that'd you like to share? Well, you know, you can go in all sorts of directions in answering that question. I think one of the things that that really sticks out to me was learning how different people live. Right? We're all so used to we grew up in our family, we live in our home or our apartment, we spend time with our friends, we know what our life is like. And in your day to day living, you rarely get pushed out of your comfort zone where you really see what someone else's day to day life is like. And so going to a homeless shelter, to pick someone up going to a prison or to a local precinct to get someone even going to an apartment in the projects in the Bronx. And you see how many people are living there or how difficult their situation is, or that where some areas are more dangerous, and you know people have to be concerned are their kids safe walking a few blocks to school. So for me, it was the biggest lessons I learned focused on understanding that my life is not the only life out there, my point of view is not the only point of view. And frankly, I think that helped a lot later on in life when I became a lawyer, recognizing that rather than digging in and saying my answers the right answer, taking the time to put myself in other folks shoes and understand what they're going through. Wow. Alright, so I'm sure our audience would hate on me for not asking, but tell us about 9/11. I mean, you were in the emergency services. Were you working that day? So I was not I was at home, I was living in Flatbush in Brooklyn. And it was, you know, beautiful weather, my window was a little bit open. And I woke up to the sound of car radios outside pretty loud, saying that, you know, a plane had hit a building. And I thought that they were it was a historical piece. Because you may know, around World War Two, a plane hit the Empire State Building. And so I thought maybe it was just something like that. My roommate quickly told me it was otherwise I called in and I said, What should I do. And they said, we need all the folks that we can. So I threw on my uniform, I drove down through the Brooklyn battery tunnel, and parked my car about three blocks south of the towers. And then I found the captain who was in charge of our unit, and I ran up to him. And we were at the southwest corner of the towers. So we had people who went into the center of the complex for triage, we had folks who were sort of out onto the outside moving people. And so I was supposed to go to the inside. And luckily I didn't, I was able to stay on the southwest corner. And so I was there maybe working about 20-25 minutes when the first tower came down. And so the tower was fairly close, came down, we all got knocked off our feet. And I had to run to try to, you know, rinse out our eyes and rinse out the water, use water, rinse out the ash and such. And then we started moving people to the Hudson River to get them across. And that's when the second tower came down. So we then again had to consolidate people, I brought a number of folks over to New Jersey, and then I came back to Manhattan to keep working. And I ended up working at Ground Zero, certainly at the beginning, just you know, hours and hours and hours. And then after the first week, I was working at Ground Zero or the pile as we called it. And at Pier 92, which was the emergency relief center until about February. Okay. So, obviously a traumatic experience. Yeah, what's what's going through your mind as you pull up, you park your car, and you get out and you see what's going on? Both towers are still standing, at that point. Both towers were still standing, you're essentially looking straight up at them, because we were so close to them. Any idea that they were going to come down? No, certainly not. You know, we'd been trained about the prior bombing that happened in 1993. And so there was concern about whether there was some sort of contaminants, some some biological warfare or something inside. So we were all very nervous. And I was, I mean, I guess I was 23 or 24 years old. So pretty young kid still at the time. And I think my biggest concern was just am I going to be able to do what I'm supposed to do? You know, what can I just stay focused on this? It was the first time in my life, I think, where I really had to ask myself, can I stay focused and do what I'm supposed to do here. And luckily, I was able to do it. And that served me well later in life in the military, right? Being able to look in at yourself and say, Alright, this is the challenge to get through, just take the steps I have to take and get through it bit by bit. And so obviously, you rely on your training as a part of that. But what else? Right, what else? Because not all of us can do that. Some people step up to a challenge. They're scared. You were scared that day, I'm sure.(Sure.) And what is it do you think that separates the people who can move forward and those who simply can't they just they turn away and and they say not me, I can't do this? You know, it's interesting, because in the past, I would have said that if you face adversity growing up and overcame adversity, then you have a culture of resilience, right? And you can be resilient in challenging situations. And that's a very, I think, a very simple answer. It's the answer that the military has turned to quite a bit We have to do resiliency training and get people prepared to face challenges. The older I get the more complicated and unpredictable I think it is. Because certainly you face challenges in your life and I face challenges and every person you meet is facing challenges of one kind or another. I'm not certain what truly separates them. When you get to a crisis like that. I think it's probably very complicated. Are you do you have a family have to worry about? Do you have children, you have to think about in those situations? Do you have, you know, experiences in the past where you've, you know, face a challenge and failed and as a result, you're now are, are more fearful to do it. So I suspect it's fairly complicated. But for me, personally, I faced a lot of adversity growing up. And I've always been an optimist, me I'm the eternal everyone who knows me will say, I'm the eternal optimist. I think people are fundamentally good. The world is a good place, the future is getting better and better. And we live in the best time you could ever live in, in world history. And so that optimism is carried me through a lot of situations. Right. When it's difficult. It's there's fear, there's concern, but my optimism says it's all going to work out one way or the other. And luckily for me, up until this point, that has been true. And as you say that we're sitting here in the in the early stages of Russia invading the Ukraine. Yes. (So, okay.) There's always there's always dips. (Right.) But the general trajectory of the world is going up.(Absolutely.) Fantastic. Alright. So you move on from being a paramedic, dealing with 9/11. What's the next step? So well, so interesting. I had been doing some relief work with a clinic in Mexico in Chiapas, Mexico I was really interested in helping out indigenous communities. The summer before 9/11, I had gone to Guatemala and I had studied Spanish for eight weeks, and then I'd gone to Mexico and worked in the clinic for a little while. And so 9/11 happened, I was in college at the time, like, obviously, I stopped with college. But I had been I, almost on a whim had applied to this medical school program in Cuba. And I had heard about it when I was in Guatemala, I knew some people who were involved with the program in New York City. And I said, well, let me apply, I probably won't get in. It's on the European model where you don't need to have a full bachelor's degree before you study. It's a six year program. So I said, let me try applying and see what happens. And to my surprise, I got accepted to it. And it was supported by the Congressional Black Caucus. So we all had licenses to be able to go to Cuba if we wanted to. So believe it or not, I went from 9/11 working on the pile until February or working, you know, related to that issue until February. And then I hopped on a plane, and I moved to Havana, Cuba, where I lived for the next two and a half years, so. So you said it was a six year program. (Six year program.) Alright. Tell us about the two and a half years you were in Cuba, you are truly a man of the world. I know we've talked about your background before, I don't think in this much detail.(Yeah.) Tell us about Cuba. Yeah. So I moved to Cuba, there was about 20 of us Americans at that point, there was 28 Different countries that were studying at the it was called the Latin American School of Medicine. And so the first six months was sort of prepping us up for study. So more intensive Spanish training, going through, make sure our math and our sciences were fundamentally sound before we started into the medical sciences. And then we went right into studying the first two years of medical school. So I spent two years studying everything from, you know, physiology, to anatomy, to histology to genetics. And after the first two years, things were going great. I had met a lot of interesting people. I was there when President Carter came down to visit, I have a picture of me, shaking the hand of Fidel Castro, for better or worse. And it was just a really amazing experience to meet people from all around the world and to study the sciences together. Unfortunately, in 2004, the US government changed its policies and said that all of us had to come back and get relicensed and it was a chance we wouldn't be able to return. I came back I took my first licensing exam for medical school and pass that with no problems. But then I just couldn't go back. The licensing issue was up in the air. There was some family issues I had to worry about. And then I fortunately for me met this lovely lady who ended up being my wife (You said fortunately right?) Yes, I met someone who was great and came into my life and became a real mentor for me and a guide for me. And so I knew pretty quickly that going back and following the path I've been following was not the way to go. And so I stayed in 2004 went back to undergrad to finish my undergraduate degree. And then in 2006, I went to law school. So go down to Cuba, you're halfway to being a doctor.(Yeah.) Come back, (Yeah.) meet your wife. (Yep.) Then decided to go back to undergrad, and then law school. Because I had to finish it right. I had to finish undergrad. I went back to do I was going to do more sciences. I tried to go to medical school in the US. Everyone said, I have to start all over again. Even though I had passed the first licensing exam, they said I have to start again at their schools. The timeline just wasn't working out correctly. And like many people who end up becoming lawyers, I went, Well, what else could I do? And my wife said, you're a smart guy you like to read? Why don't you go to law school. So I took the LSAT and applied to law school, and I got in to Fordham Law, which has ended up being a perfect match for me great school to go to. And so yeah, 2006, I said, well, I finished my undergrad, instead of going to medical school, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to law school, which was probably a good decision for me. It's funny that you say that I never I grew up never want to go to law school. I wanted to go be a doctor as well. And that didn't work out for me. My first semester of Baylor I made all A's and A, D, and D was in biology. So yes, I was quickly told Mr. Snellings, you will not be a doctor at least not at this university. (Find something else.) Exactly. Yeah. But at law school, so many people end up kind of falling into it. I think the public perceives it as something that you know, you grow up and you always want to be (Yeah.) a lawyer, you're just like you grow up, you always want to be a doctor. But I can't tell you how many music majors and one of my good friends is a he has a physics, master's degree, and they're all over the place. So really interesting that that you kind of fell in it as well. And I think, frankly, I think that's great, because that's one things that's great about the law is that the law is a skill set. It's an area of practice, but there's so many areas within it that if you have a music background, or a physics background, or a poli sci background, there's a place for you in the in the world, in the legal community. So backing up to Havana, did you were all your classes in Spanish? All in Spanish, yep. And all under the Cuban model. So you know, you when the teacher came in, everyone stands up, right? Y'all stand up, was very respectful towards the professor. None of the informalities that you see in the U.S. system. In fact, that was a little shock to me, when I came back to the U.S., you know, everyone's hanging out chewing gum in the classroom. And there, you stand up and wait till the teacher says you can be seated. You don't go anywhere without permission, so it was pretty restricted. And so your the lectures are in Spanish? (Yep.) Your textbooks are in Spanish. (Yep.) Your tests are in Spanish. (Yeah.) So coming back and going to med school in the US would be seemingly easier for you? Maybe, maybe not, I mean, certainly a lot of it is based in Latin, Greek and Latin anyhow. So the words will end up being very similar for the Latin side. And I would hope it would have been easier. But I still think it would not have been the right industry for me in terms of the life I was going to have. My wife's a nurse practitioner now. And she meets a lot of doctors who are very frustrated with the medical system and the billing practices and insurance and such. So I like the freedom and the opportunity that I have as a lawyer much better. So it all worked out from seeing it. My optimism worked out, it all worked out for me. And I can attest to being a personal injury lawyer that yes, insurance is completely broken. Yeah. On the medical side, on the auto side, you name it.(Yeah.) We're not a fan of how insurance works, these days.(I'm sure.) Alright. So you graduated from law school?(Yep.) What happens next? So when I was in law school, we had the one L year and the two L summers. Alright, the two summers where you, you have the chance to go out and work somewhere. So my first summer, I was really interested because of 9/11, I wanted to understand where terrorism came from, and the cultural and religious background of terrorism, especially what had led to 9/11. That's why I studied comparative religion as my undergraduate degree eventually. You got a degree in comparative comparative religion? I knew that was a class I didn't even know you could go get a degree in that. Phenomenal program at Hunter College with now retired professor Barbara Sproul. Incredible, incredible professor incredible program, really a jewel of the of the city university system, frankly. And but I knew I wanted to learn more about counterterrorism and these issues. I was interested in service, still. And I met someone who had worked at the US I would imagine, I think most of us would have a hard time Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of New York, in Brooklyn doing counterterrorism. And I was lucky to get a position as a summer intern summer clerk in the counterterrorism section. So that was an incredible experience. And I said to everyone, this is the job that I want. How do I get it and as you walked around, everyone was a former JAG, you know, Army Judge Advocate, Marine Judge Advocate. Everyone had been in the military and had served as a lawyer in the military. So I went, Okay, that's what I need to do. So I went back the beginning of my second law school year and I joined ROTC. There are no 30 year olds, second year law school students joining ROTC I didn't even know you could promise you Yes, well, no one thought I could and I did. So I joined ROTC. But I knew I had to get a corporate job for my for my third my next summer between second and third year of law school. So the way it worked at my school is you had to list out, this was before the crash, you could list out 30 or 32 law firms of the list that you want to interview with. And I did the oh I want this firm and this firm and this firm. And then I had to fill the list with 32 names. And so there was one it was called Kenyon and Kenyon. And I thought, oh, it's the same name twice. That's hilarious. I'll put it on my list. Well,(So, well thought through.) well thought through, right. Little did I know that they were a 100 year old plus intellectual property boutique shop. I didn't really know anything about intellectual property at the time, very little. And but they saw that I had a biomedical background from, you know, from being in Cuba and studying medicine there. So when it was time for me to make all my decisions in life for the army, I said, You know what, I'll go into the reserves. I'll stick around in New York City as a reservist. And then for the job, Kenyon and Kenyon hired me after my second summer, and they said, great, we need someone to work on pharmaceutical patent litigation. And I was like, that sounds fascinating. I'll do it. So I raised my hand. And so after law school ended, I went to Kenyon and Kenyon in the pharmaceutical patent side, which was quite the experience for me, yeah. spelling pharmaceutical correctly. Alright, so you joined the army. Right? Why the army as opposed to Air Force, Marines? I really liked the idea of boots on the ground. I came from, you know, being a paramedic, obviously. So I wanted that, that energy, the army seemed to me, you know, the big green machine, you know, there's always the joke that the, the Marines take the coast and the army takes the continent. So I was like, army is the way for me to go. The ROTC program was great. It was really well run. And it was an opportunity that was there. So I just said, Army for me. And I'm glad I did. It was the definitely the perfect branch for me to go into. Okay, and so you joined up with the army and you were how old? 33, I guess when I got out of law school. And at what point do you age out is that 35? It's usually 35. Without a waiver, there's some waivers you can get to get in. Alright, if we need a lot of people, the waivers expand. (It's amazing how that works.) Amazing how it works, suddenly, people can just pop in, so. Alright, so you, you sign up? And then do you go directly to the JAG program? Or how does that work? So no. So I signed up, and I was waiting for the JAG training calendar to come through. And so where you go to the JAG School, which is about three months of training. And so while I was waiting, I worked in a unit handling. It's called Information Operations. Now, it's got a longer more confusing acronym. But basically the combination of a psychological operations and and sort of marketing efforts, right, where we go out and we say, how can we influence the community to be more aligned with U.S. values and get them to align with us in a military struggle. So I did that for a while. And I was working at Kenyon and Kenyon, which was a great firm, now defunct, right they're, they've dissolved. But I just realized very quickly that being in a small office, as a lawyer, I just was not ready for it yet. I hadn't burned out all the energy that I had. So I came home to my wife, who was then she had her MBA in finance, and she was working at a great, so I was working at a great paying job at a great firm in New York. She was working at a great paying job, you know doing investment banking. And then I said, What if we quit all of this, and I go active duty with the army. And I think her insight, she saw that I needed to burn something off. And so she said, Okay, we'll do it. So not all the trains, not all the New York City paramedic rides, that didn't do it? Not the Cuba, didn't do it. So yeah, it's funny. So we ended up making the decision. And so I went in in July 4th, I went and I started, that was the first day of my active duty, July 4th. And so I became an active duty JAG officer, which is another great job. I mean, great, great, great place to be. Alright, so at some point, you decide that's not enough, either. That's right. And you decide to go try your hand as a Ranger. Is that right? That's right. Well, yeah, so I was I had gone to Air Assault School. That's sort of, you know, rappelling out of helicopters and that was a lot of fun. And I said, this is great. I want to do more of this. So I got on active duty and I went to Airborne School jumping out of planes. I said, this is great. I want to do more of this. And I said, well`, I'm at Fort Benning, Georgia, Ranger schools at Fort Benning, Georgia. Perfect. And everyone said, no JAG is going to Ranger School. No 35-year-old JAG. No 35-year-old JAG is going to go to Ranger School. And I had a commander, Colonel Meg Forman, great mentor, excellent attorney. And she believed that I could do it. She knew that I was looking at changing branches to go infantry. And she said, well, why don't you should stick around the JAG corps and she was right. And she said, Why don't you stick around? We'll find opportunities for you, and I'll send you to Ranger School. And she kind of made a connection for me, I was able to get in. I was a 35 year old captain JAG officer going to Ranger School. And I got there. And I went to the first phase of Ranger school and they failed me. They say, they said, you're no good. They said, You're a lentil, and this is a world of meat eaters. And they basically, I had about 20 days between cycles, they let me recycle, start again and had 20 days during which I got to do some navel gazing and go, Okay, I got it, I've got to get after it. And so then I went back to Ranger School, finished it up with no problem. And Ranger School is probably the best formative experience I've had in my life. I mean, talk about a chance to see who you are. You know, it turns out, I really am an optimist, it turns out that I, I really am a bit of a glutton for punishment, right. And it turns out that I know what my limits are. I know when I'm at the point that I can't go any further. Whether it's not eating, whether it's not sleeping, whether it's getting along with others and or not being able to get along with others. Ranger School is a leadership school, it's you do a lot of tactics, but the real point of it is to help you to figure out who you are, and push you to all the limits that can push you to physical, mental, emotional exhaustion. And so similar to BUD/S for the Navy SEALs, there's a pretty high washout rate for Ranger School. Is that right? (There is.) Alright, so kind of getting back to our previous question of what is it that drives people past that point of I just can't do it. To take one more step two more steps. What did you observe in Ranger School between the guys who just couldn't push past that point? And then the ones like you who did and were able to complete it? I think what, what's interesting about Ranger School, and about all the schools like that in the military services, is that the people who do well, are the ones who are emotionally mature, you have to have an emotional maturity. Because there's, there's a million folks who've been working out for five years. And they are huge, and they're strong, and they, they can do a million push ups. That doesn't help you in Ranger School. That's always the joke, right? You can, we had a guy who was maybe five, two, I don't know. And we had a guy who was six, six and built like a linebacker. And I think the bigger guy suffered a lot more, right? He was used to being the strong guy, when you took away all that strength, all you have is that psychological maturity, that emotional maturity. And what you need to do is not quit. The number one thing is you don't quit. Almost everyone who fails out of Ranger School quits. Some people get failed out by getting peered out, meaning that at the end of one of the phases, you have this peer review or you review each other, and someone can get removed from the school because they get low peer rankings. But even then it's because of emotional maturity. It's those who were more selfish, more focused on their own interest weren't looking out for the group as a whole. So I think that's the biggest difference is emotional maturity. It helped me greatly. I mean, I suffered terribly physically, when I was at Ranger School, the emotional, I felt very, very confident, very comfortable there. I wasn't worried about that. Every time I was in pain, or exhausted, passing out or, you know, just so hungry. Having that, that well of emotional maturity to say, I know why I'm here. I know what I'm doing. I know if I stick with it, I'll make it through. Everything else will just fall by the wayside. And so you have to remind yourself of that. And it's probably I think, as your as you know, I do a lot of ultra races, right, I go, right, long runs, and it's the same thing. You're running and you're exhausted. And it's easy for you to say, oh, my body hurts. Let me slow down. But if you use that emotional, well of emotional maturity to say, your body's a liar, your body's not telling you the truth. You can go further, you will find you can if you can run six miles, you can run a marathon. Absolutely. But it's` you have to have the emotional maturity to do it. And so would 18 or 20 or 25 year old James have been able to complete ranger school like 35 year old James? Uh, that's a good question I've never thought about it that way. I don't think 18 or 20 year old would have been able to I think I was too focused in the short term. Too short term thinking, you really have to have that goal. So one of the things that you do in Ranger School is when someone's going off, like so, you know, I've got my tab, my Ranger tab. If someone told me they're going to school, I might give them a Ranger tab and they put it on the inside of their sleeve or on the inside of their cap. And it's supposed to motivate you, right? And it's making you say if I get through this, I will achieve this thing. This is the symbol of what I will achieve. I don't think I had the emotional maturity at 18 or 20. Me personally to, to be able to do that. But I met privates in Ranger School who were probably 18, just barely 18 themselves, who absolutely had the maturity to do that. And in fact, some you know, whenever I've heard criticisms about younger generations, I always go, I've met incredible people from younger generations who are selfless and focused and energized, and want to serve their community, and they work hard. So I've met some of the best folks from those generations. And so you, you've labeled it as emotional maturity. Where do you think that comes from? I think part of it probably comes from hardship, having to overcome hardship, and then see things work out. You know, there's a certain there's probably a certain amount of luck to it. I mean, I certainly don't think that everything has worked out for me has been simply because of my own inherent capabilities. You know, I'm a man, I'm white. I'm, you know, I'm living in a world where I have some more intrinsic benefits that maybe come to me. And so maybe some of my luck has come from external circumstances. And maybe if I had faced certain other challenges, I wouldn't have felt as optimistic about the world. But either way, I think it comes from looking at a challenge that you're facing and saying, Well, how can I overcome this? What can I do to get to the next level, and you build a habit, you build a practice of being able to overcome adversity. So for me now, when a case goes bad, or I'm having a problem with managing the company or something, I can look back to a set of experiences that I've overcome successfully and say, Well, I've done it before, let me use that same set of skills to do it now. And so let's let's focus a little bit more on that. Because one of the things that I'm incredibly interested in is how people approach problems, their mindset, and then how they stay the course in solving those problems. So you were presented with a problem not too long ago, you own a law firm, you had an office, you have lawyers and other employees working for you. You get orders to deploy for what, six months? Yes, yeah. to Germany, right. Most people look at that say, Okay, I got a problem here. Yeah. Walk us through mindset, how you approached it, and how you battled through that? Well, I think the first thing is recognizing, you know, no man is an island. And that's true, no matter what challenges we're facing in life, you have to rely on other people. And you can't rely on other people last minute, you have to build relationships, you have to build trust, you know, we always talk, I always talk in the firm about, people have to know you, like you and trust you to hire you. And you have to have a group of people that you know, and like and trust, and they know and like and trust you as your support network for when these challenges come up. So I had not only did I have the orders for me to go overseas. But then once I started the process of going overseas, and I was about two weeks into it, one of my main attorneys left the firm, he got an opportunity to go be general counsel for one of our clients. He's a great lawyer, it's a great client, it was a perfect opportunity for him. So there was no problem with it, but it added on another layer of complications. Now I'm gone, and I'm down one important resource. And one of the lawyers that I have, Charles Wallace who's just like a keystone to the firm, he really held everything down while I was gone. And so we had built a lot of trust, he trusted that I was going to try to run things in the right way. And then I had a plan that I knew how we were going to get through this phase, I trusted him that I could let go of the reins a little bit and routinely say, you just have to handle this issue on your own, and I trust you to make the decision. And that came from a podcast I heard some years ago, and I cannot remember where it was that talked about the difference between saying to your employees. I don't care, you handle it, versus I trust you, you handle it, right. I had the trust, I built the trust. And he understood that I was being authentic that I genuinely trusted him. So he helped carry a lot of the load during that time. Of course, the other part of it was that I'd worked for the Army all day long. And then I'd come home and I'd rest up for a little while and I'd work in the evenings until maybe midnight and then have to get up the next morning and do the same. So it was a real challenge. But for me, the firm that I'm building is not about just making money, right? It's about building something larger, that's going to take care of my family and take care of the people who work for me and take care of our clients who put a lot of trust in us. And so when I'm tired or I'm frustrated or I'm facing these challenges, I have this sacred trust from my family, sacred trust from from my employees, sacred trust from the clients. They're all relying on me to do the right thing every day, right every decision, every day do the right thing. That helps motivate me when it's difficult. And so that that collective trust is your Ranger tab on the inside. (That's right.) To get you through those issues, and that problem. I think mindset is huge and problem solving, right? I think a lot of people have these problems arise. And the immediate reaction is, oh, no, this is awful. How am I going to fix this? The sky is falling. Probably a lot like young James, walking up on 9/11. You're immediately overcome by these initial emotions. Alright, I know there's times when I get a phone call, or you know, somebody comes and tells me something. And there's this immediate flood of oh, no. Right? Cold sweat, increased heart rate. Yep, I know it well. What do you do to kind of detach from that, if you will? To use a Jocko Willink term. (Yeah.) Detatch from that and say, okay, this isn't helping me. How do I get into problem solving mode? What steps do you take? Yeah, so for me personally, I need to talk things out. I'm sort of a live, live working things out. But obviously, if I don't have someone to do that with I do it on my own. And so my normal thing is, and this happens with clients all the time they call it they say, here's my problem, I gather the information that I can gather while the cold sweats breaking out. And I say, great, let me think about it and talk to the team, and I'll get right back to you. Oftentimes, the very next step is I open up a blank Word document, and I just start typing out what are my thoughts? What are the notes, there's no structure to it, I'm just trying to get out what the issues are. Identify the problems, what's good for us? What's bad for us, internally? Who's going to work on it? What are the issues that are going to come up? What's our calendar look like? Do we have bandwidth for this, and just throw it all out onto the page as a way of me live walking through the problem. And I can feel the stress decrease as I do that, because I'm offloading it from inside my head onto a piece of paper, or more often a Word document that maybe I don't ever look at again, right? It might just be it's just a mechanism for me to offload and get my mind in order. And as I do that, I start to make the connections and I go, okay, we can shift this, we can move this, here's the approach we can take, here's the questions that I have. That doesn't mean that the cold sweat has gone away. It doesn't mean that now it's no longer a crisis, it just means that, you know, I've got a better sense of how to go forward with it. The other thing that was helpful for me is that being a paramedic, there was a lot of scary things that happen, right, you show up on the scene, and someone just got shot. And there's people yelling and screaming, and there's someone who's in a lot of pain, and you're trying to manage an emergency. And at some point, by doing that, you start to get into a mode of you, you're better at detaching yourself a little bit and saying, let me get through the process now. That's oftentimes what leads in an unhealthy way to PTSD for people, right, is that you never go back and revisit those emotions. (Process everything.) That's a much more significant thing when you're in military service, or you're serving as a paramedic, or there's a, you know, buildings collapsing during an international incident. It's never that serious for me as a lawyer. But those said, that same skill set of saying, let me take a moment, take an inventory of what's going on, what are the steps? Let me start walking through it. That's what opening up that word doc does for me. And the other thing is, I always try to keep in mind that what's not an emergency for me is an emergency for the client. Right? I mean, someone quitting a business on a Friday, and they were someone who programmed a lot of their code for your software product. And you think they took it with them on a flash drive. Like that is an emergency from the business owners point of view. And so we're still working through a crisis. Right, what is racking and stacking? What are the primary issues like what's truly an emergency that we have to stop this today? First, okay, we have to work out contractual issues with this former employee that goes further down the list. And so I'm racking and stacking that's good military term. I'm racking and stacking as I'm using that word doc. It's sombody else's cold sweat, but you're still going through the same process. (That's right.) But I think it's super important to acknowledge here too, that here you are, been through 9/11 been through, you know, military, and you still get those feelings. Sure. They don't just go away. It's not something that you can say, Hey, body, stop doing this. Right. That's our stress reaction.(Yep.) And that's okay. It's okay to feel those things. It's just you got to take that next step. Absolutely. You got to have the ability to okay, I recognize what's going on. My heart's racing. My breath is a lot shorter. As you all know, you stand up in court sometimes and a surprise has just been, you know, dropped down in your lap. (Moments before.) Yeah, as you stand up, it's all of a sudden, somebody sucked the oxygen out of the room. (Yep.) And you got to figure out what you're gonna do on the spot, right then, now. The judge wants to hear what you have to say to respond to it, the jury wants to hear whatever the case may be. And that is practice, right? You can't necessarily just be able to put these emotions aside and deal with a problem until you've done it. Mm hmm. And so what would you recommend in terms of how do you practice dealing with these types of situations where you have the emotions, you're able to set them aside and move forward with a plan and start marching towards, you know, the goal line? Well, I think we all face challenges every day, and some of it is just calming yourself, right? I hate to wait in lines. My wife Eliza will tell you,(You're in the military. What do you mean, you hate to wait in lines?) That's probably why probably it's been been I still get so frustrated with it. And so, (Hurry up and wait.) I get to a line and I go, Okay, I see what the issue is, I have to wait, I have no other place to go, I have to be here. Let me calm myself down. Just take a breath and recognize the situation. And just, you know, it's not going to help anyone for me to get frustrated with it. Let me just relax. Maybe just look around, maybe I read something, just try to let the time go by. That's a very minor challenge, right? But that's a challenge that you could alternatively go, you get upset, irritated, you start looking around, you're showing your frustration, you're letting those emotions rule you, and then it's gonna come out and behaviors that aren't good for you or anyone around you.(Right.) So I think a lot of it is awareness. You know, I could not be anywhere where I am in my life without my wife, Eliza. And she is very aware about people's emotions and how people think and how people process information. And she's very good at teaching me to be better at this right? That awareness is really the first step. So taking a moment and go, Okay, what's going on. And we can all do that in our day to day. Someone cuts you off as you're driving down the Tollway, right, don't let the frustration get to you. Take a breath, start calming yourself. If you get into the habit of doing that, as crises get bigger and more complicated, that's still the first thing you have to do. When you're in court, and something drops moments before, the very best thing you can do is to take a deep breath, and like wait a few extra seconds, it's okay, if you don't start speaking immediately. And those few, you know from experience, those few moments of calm will help you to go, okay, I got this, I'm gonna start working through this. Sometimes you're working through it, you kind of making it up as you go. But the more you've done it, the more you have a wealth of experiences and knowledge you can draw upon. Absolutely. And for those of us with kids, that's also a great source of practice. There is there are opportunities daily in my life to practice patience.(Yes, for sure.) Alright, so James, tell us this. One of the things that I've always found, being surrounded by a bunch of driven people and the driven people I've met is they're passionate people.. One of the things I love to ask jurors, potential jurors and Voir Dire or jury selection is what are you passionate about? Because I think that tells us all kinds about people. Yeah. So what are you passionate about? Uh, let me see. Obviously, I'm, you know, at the heart of things passionate about my family, my family is number one to me. And in our firm, I always say it's family first. If you have a family issue, you don't need to say anything else, right? We take care of our families,first. It's us, it's us in the world. So my wife, Eliza, and my kids, Emma and Amelia, they drive me and keep me excited and exhaust me sometimes. But I'm passionate about being a good father. To me if, at the end of my life, what I care most about is being having been a good father and a good husband. After that, what I'm passionate about really is climate change and environmental issues. I've always been an environmentalist always been concerned about climate change. And so I've always wanted to find ways to merge my passion in environmental issues and ecology with our law firm. And so one of the things that we've done is last July, we started our One Future initiative. Because our the motto of our firm is we help inspiring people build one amazing future. And that one future is the future we're all going to share together, right? We're all going to the same future. We can make it better if we contribute to it. And the One Future initiative, one of the things we're doing is we are a climate positive workforce. So we offset the carbon for all of our employees in their personal lives and in our professional lives. We do tree planting, we do support for developing nations with projects that help them to improve their environmental practices. To me, some people don't find that that interesting. To me, I could read read about it and talk about it all day long. You know, this year we're going to plant 50,000 trees as a firm. And to me, it feels great that we can take some of the financial benefit that we get from running a good business and doing right by our clients, and then do right by our larger community at the same time. Fantastic. Well, and that's the great thing about passions is they are yours and yours alone.(That's right.) So what may be boring to me is a passion of yours and something that drives you forward. So, James, we're out of time. Thank you so much. I learned a ton about you today, even though I've known you for eight years. And I appreciate you taking the time out to be with us today. Well, thank you for having me. It's been great and I look forward to working with you more in the future. (Alright.)